Britain responds to the threat of islam by continuing to do very
little ...

====================================================================

HATE PREACHER: I WANT SHARIA LAW IN BRITAIN
Sunday March 29,2009
By James Murray

RADICAL Muslim Anjem Choudary has brushed aside a Scotland Yard probe into
his inflammatory speeches to demand that Britain should become a Sharia state.

His voice rising with passion and vigour, he told his growing army of
followers in central London on Friday night: "Let me tell you something
- the Sharia will be implemented in Pakistan, it will be implemented in
India and Bangladesh and even down the road in Downing Street."

He was sharing a platform with four other senior members of Islam4UK, a new organisation which is attracting the sort of believers who loyally followed hate preacher Abu Hamza before he was locked up.

Muslims around the world will rise and eventually conquer the White House, said Choudary, comparing the struggle ahead with that faced by Muslims hundreds of years ago, who constantly brushed the dust of battles from
their eyes as they conquered nations.

Astonishingly, he compared himself to Noah from the Old Testament in one ranting outburst.

"People said 'look at that man building that boat in the mountain'," he said. "Now they say 'look at that lunatic calling for the Sharia in Britain'
... they say the same thing."

Like those doubters in centuries past, Muslims will be tested but they must hold true to their convictions.

"The question is, will your footsteps be in the struggle?" he asked the audience of more than 100 young Muslim men who share a deep-seated and worrying loathing of everything that Britain stands for.

The old Islamic army was 60 million strong and stretched from the "east of
the east to the west of the west" and those days will come again, he said, although there are no countries in the world ruled by Sharia.

[...]

Full article at UK "Daily Express"
http://www.express.co.uk/posts/view/91891/ Hate-preacher-I-want-Sharia-law-in-Britain

---
* Origin: Xaragmata / Adelaide SA telnet://xaragmata.thebbs.org (3:800/432)

[...]

Astonishingly, he compared himself to Noah from the Old Testament in one ranting outburst.

"People said 'look at that man building that boat in the mountain'," he said. [...]

Noah built a boat in the mountain? Interesting.


Regards,

Roger

... Don't worry, I'm fluent in weirdo
--- D'Bridge 3.24
* Origin: NCS BBS (1:3828/7)

As crazy or as unbelievable as the previous UK article may sound, there is one disturbing element which seems to clearly define the religious nature of the endtime One World Government of the Beast. The word "beast" is used in the Bible to refer to a specific political leader, or the government of a specific nation, or a world power. At any rate, that one disturbing element is the fact that those who refuse to go along with the One World Government will be beheaded. There is only ONE modern major religion where beheading by a sword remains an acceptable form of capital punishment, and it certainly isn't Christianity or Judaism or Buddhism or Hinduism.

Jeff Snyder, SysOp - Armageddon BBS Visit us at endtimeprophecy.org port 23 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Your Download Center 4 Mac BBS Software & Christian Files. We Use Hermes II


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On 04/04/09, Jeff Snyder quoted Roger Nelson: Re: Choudary calls for
Sharia "Law" in UK.

Noah built a boat in the mountain? Interesting. Regards, Roger

To my knowledge, the Bible does not specifically say where Noah built the Ark. What we do know is that once the flood waters receded, the Ark rested upon the "mountains of Ararat", which is a mountainous region of eastern Armenia, between the river Araxes, and the lakes Van and Oroomiah. Some Bible scholars and archeologists claim to have discovered the remains of the Ark, as well anchor stones, an altar that Noah built afterwards, and even the remains of
the stone house that Noah built afterwards, as well as the vineyard that he planted, and areas where animals were kept afterwards. Exactly how accurate or true any of this really is, I honestly do not know. Over the decades, there have been several claims of having found the Ark in different areas of the Arafat region.

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world power. At any rate, that one disturbing element is the fact
that those who refuse to go along with the One World Government
will be beheaded. There is only ONE modern major religion where
beheading by a sword remains an acceptable form of capital
punishment, and it certainly isn't Christianity or Judaism or
Buddhism or Hinduism.

I agree on the first point about those who refuse to go along ...
will be beheaded, but disagree on the second point about there
being only one modern religion sanctioning beheading.

Another religion mandating execution, generally by beheading,
is Judaism, which claims a mandate to impose and enforce the
"Noahide Laws" ... the "Seven Laws of Noah", "Universal Laws"
etc.

This is not to say that all Jews support the imposition of
noahide laws on gentiles ("Children of Noah"); it is largely
the "Lubavitchers" (Chabad Lubavitch) / followers of the late
Rebbe Menachem Mendel Schneerson who push for this, but they
are not without influence, in Washington and elsewhere.

These are the Seven Laws on Chabad Org: www.chabad.org/therebbe/article_cdo/aid/62221/jewish/Universal-Morality.htm

--------------------------------------------------------------------
THE 7 LAWS

1
Acknowledge that there is only one G-d who is Infinite and Supreme above all things. Do not replace that Supreme Being with finite idols, be it yourself, or other beings. This command includes such acts as prayer, study and meditation.

2
Respect the Creator. As frustrated and angry as you may be, do not vent it
by cursing your Maker.

3
Respect human life. Every human being is an entire world. To save a life is
to save that entire world. To destroy a life is to destroy an entire world.
To help others live is a corollary of this principle.

4
Respect the institution of marriage. Marriage is a most Divine act. The marriage of a man and a woman is a reflection of the oneness of G-d and
His creation. Disloyalty in marriage is an assault on that oneness.

5
Respect the rights and property of others. Be honest in all your business dealings. By relying on G-d rather than on our own conniving, we express
our trust in Him as the Provider of Life.

6
Respect G-d's creatures. At first, Man was forbidden to consume meat.
After the Great Flood, he was permitted - but with a warning: Do not
cause unnecessary suffering to any creature.

7
Maintain justice. Justice is G-d's business, but we are given the charge
to lay down necessary laws and enforce them whenever we can. When we right
the wrongs of society, we are acting as partners in the act of sustaining
the creation. ---------------------------------------------------------------------

The 7th "Law" is the one that mandates the death penalty for breaches
of the others, and all these "laws" will be overseen by the Sanhedrin, operating from the Third Temple.

From the Temple Mount Center - Mercaz Har HaBayith
( http://www.hamikdash.com/Introenglish.html )

The Responsibilities of the Gentiles:
( http://www.hamikdash.com/Rambam.html )

Extracts ...

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

What does G-d require from the Gentiles? How can they achieve a moral life
in this world, and the rewards of the world to come?

First we will present a synopsis of the commandments which are applicable
to all of the Gentile nations, and then we will present a detailed explication.

Seven Commandments for the Gentiles, called the Sheva Mitzvos B'nei Noach:

The Path for Gentiles to Enter into the World to Come and to Avoid the Flood of Immorality in this World.

1. No worship or prayer to anyone except G-d. No images of G-d. No prayers
to intermediaries. G-d is one, not none, not two, not three, not many.

2. No murder. Execution of criminals is however not murder, and is required. See 7.

3. No sexual iniquity which means no adultery, no incest, no homosexuality
and no bestiality.

4. No stealing, even of an inconsequential amount.

5. No eating flesh removed from a living animal.

6. No cursing of G-d. No blasphemy.

7. Must set up law courts to judge on the other six. All seven are capital crimes. If the country does not set up courts to judge on the other six and
to punish transgressors with death, then all of the inhabitants who could
do anything about it are punishable

[... ...]

16. In what way are the Gentiles to set up law courts? They must establish judges in every single town to judge on the other six commandments, and to
warn people against violating them. A Gentile who violates one of these seven commandments is killed by the sword.

[... ...]

20. The punishment for violating any of the seven commandments of the
children of Noah is execution, generally by the sword.

[... ...]

All of the above is based strictly on the Rambam (Maimonides), one of the greatest codifiers of Jewish law.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Take careful note of "Law 1", which forbids prayers to intermediaries, and
thus forbids prayers in Jesus' name, as the sole mediator between God and
man, and has the effect of outlawing Christianity, with death by the sword
for those who transgress.

There is, of course, much more on the "Noahide Laws" and their implications
for Christians.

Cheers, Steve..

---
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Hello Steve. Thanks for sharing the information regarding the "Noahide Laws" and "The Responsibilities of the Gentiles". While I obviously don't agree with it all, I did find it interesting.

I am curious. Are you of Jewish descent? Your last name is obviously Jewish, Asher, of course, being Jacob's second son by Zilpah, the maid of his first wife, Leah.

I was surprised to learn that certain sects of Judaism support beheading. However, I don't think that what you are saying is exactly the same as what I was saying in my previous post.

In other words, when I stated that there is only one religion that I am aware of where beheading with a sword is an acceptable form of capital punishment, what I really meant to express is that there is only one religion that I know of where beheading with a sword is currently an ACTIVE and ENFORCED form of punishment. This certainly cannot be said of Judaism. There are no public executions by a sword in Israel that I am aware of, but in some Muslim countries, there most certainly are.

It is also important to note that while beheading may be supported by certain Jewish sects, Israel is in fact governed, and has been governed, by a very secular government. I am aware of the fact that the extremist Shas Party has joined Bibi's, (Benjamin Netanyahu's), coalition, but nevertheless, it is
still very much a secular government...and yes, I am worried that Netanyahu
and Shas are in power again. I was concerned when Netanyahu won the first time as well. As long as he is in power, there will be no peace agreement, or Palestinian state, and both sides will continue to become more radicalized.

But getting back to the laws that you quoted, it certainly seems that some
Jews are just as much hypocrites when it comes to abiding by their religious laws, as some Christians are hypocrites about keeping theirs. Considering that over 3,000 Palestinians have died since the last Intifada began in 2000, and that hundreds more, including many innocent civilians, died during the recent Gaza War, in which excessive force was used, as on other occasions, their "respect of human life", (law #3), certainly seems bogus.

I also get a chuckle out of their degree of adherence to law #5 regarding
being "honest in all your business dealings". It's a noble law, but realistically speaking...come on. :)

I also noticed your reference to the Gentiles being the "Children of Noah". I don't understand this distinction, being as the Jews are the descendants of Noah as well, through his son, Shem, which ultimately resulted in the birth of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. We pale-skinned Westerners are all Shemites.

As you already know, as a Christian, I cannot possibly accept their rejection of Jesus Christ, or their claim to have the right to impose certain laws upon Gentiles, which they claim will help Gentiles to "achieve a moral life in this world, and the rewards of the world to come". As a result of their rejection
of Christ, they have formulated a religion of self-righteous works. They are depending upon their own works and observance of the Law, instead of the Grace and Mercy which we receive from God, through Christ, who, according to the Christian faith, is the final sacrificial Lamb of the New Testament.

I noticed that you also mentioned the Sanhedrin and the Third Temple. The latter is something I have written about and spoken about for years. Do you care to share your views on it? I am fully aware of the Temple Mount Faithful and similar groups, as well as current attempts to restore the temple, including the preparation of the priestly garments, the temple implements,
etc. Do you think this will actually happen any time soon, if ever; and will
it require a war to remove the Mosque of Omar and the Dome of the Rock, or do you think there will be a compromise in which both will sit upon the mount simultaneously? Just curious as to your thoughts.

Jeff Snyder, SysOp - Armageddon BBS Visit us at endtimeprophecy.org port 23 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Your Download Center 4 Mac BBS Software & Christian Files. We Use Hermes II


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Roger Nelson wrote in a message to Steve Asher:

[...]

Astonishingly, he compared himself to Noah from the Old Testament in one ranting outburst.

"People said 'look at that man building that boat in the mountain'," he said. [...]

Noah built a boat in the mountain? Interesting.

During the flood, the Ark was thought to have reached the height of the suurounding mountain peaks. There are some very imaginative pictures, showing what is said to be part of the Ark, lying near a mountain top in the Biblical region.


Regards,

Joe
--- timEd/386 1.10.y2k+
* Origin: -=[Fire on the Bayou]=- Nawlins (1:3828/12)

Hi Jeff...

It will be easier (for me) to reply in chunks, instead of attempting
to post one long reply.

Hello Steve. Thanks for sharing the information regarding the
"Noahide Laws" and "The Responsibilities of the Gentiles". While I obviously don't agree with it all, I did find it interesting.

I am curious. Are you of Jewish descent? Your last name is
obviously Jewish, Asher, of course, being Jacob's second son by
Zilpah, the maid of his first wife, Leah.

To my knowledge, I am not of Jewish descent, despite my last name -
Scottish, and English, though there may be a link I am not aware of.

Cheers, Steve..

---
* Origin: Xaragmata / Adelaide SA telnet://xaragmata.thebbs.org (3:800/432)

I was surprised to learn that certain sects of Judaism support
beheading. However, I don't think that what you are saying is
exactly the same as what I was saying in my previous post.

In other words, when I stated that there is only one religion that
I am aware of where beheading with a sword is an acceptable form of capital punishment, what I really meant to express is that there is
only one religion that I know of where beheading with a sword is
currently an ACTIVE and ENFORCED form of punishment. This certainly
cannot be said of Judaism. There are no public executions by a
sword in Israel that I am aware of, but in some Muslim countries,
there most certainly are.

I accept your distinction, but in return point out the "obligation"
on Jews to seek observance of "Halacha" laws, and the obligation to
impose Noahide Laws upon Gentiles. Israel is currently a secular
state, unlike islamic "theocracies" such as Iran / Saudi Arabia.

The clear "halachic" requirement is that Israel change from a secular
state to a theocracy, under the (currently nascent) Sanhedrin, and to
rule the Gentile nations by imposing & enforcing Noahide Laws.

E.G. (noachide = noahide):


The Obligation of Jews to Seek Observance of Noachide[1] Laws by Gentiles:
A Theoretical Review
by Rabbi Michael J. Broyde[*]

[... ...]

ABSTRACT
This paper addresses the scope of Jewish law's mandate upon Jews to enforce the Seven Noachide commandments, as well as any other rules Jewish law
mandates that Gentiles should keep. Part One of this article outlines what
are the Noachide commandments, and their place in a halachic system.

Part Two discusses the obligation of both Jews and Noachides under the rubric of the commandment called dinim (literally: "laws" or "justice").

Part Three reviews the various opinions on the obligation of Jews to
enforce the Noachide commandments. Part Three will consider not only
whether enforcement must be sought, but in situations where enforcement
is not possible, whether Jewish law mandates Jews to seek to persuade Noachides to obey their commandments. It will also consider whether --
when such persuasion fails -- Jewish law, at the minimum, requires that
one may not assist a Gentile in violating the Noachide commandments.

This article concludes that notwithstanding a minority opinion to the contrary, Jewish law accepts that Gentiles are obligated to keep the Noachide laws, and they are obligated even for unintentional violations. So too, Jewish law recognizes that Gentiles are obligated to create a system of laws designed to -- at the minimum -- enforce the Noachide laws. Finally, while Maimonides appears to accept that Jews as well as Noachides are obligated to enforce the Noachide laws, many authorities, early and late, reject this rule of Maimonides
and deny that there is a halachic obligation on individual Jews
to compel Noachides to observe their laws. Finally this article noted that whether there is (or is not) a halachic obligation to affirmatively enforce the
Noachide laws, it is nonetheless still biblically prohibited to enable or entice a Noachide to violate the Noachide laws (if absent a Jew's assistance, the law would not be violated). However, in a situation where the Noachide is able to violate the law without the assistance of any Jew, many authorities rule that there is no obligation to prevent a Noachide from sinning and thus one may even assist the Noachide in sin.

[... ...]

Source: http://www.jlaw.com/Articles/noach2.html#oblig-compel


Cheers, Steve..

---
* Origin: Xaragmata / Adelaide SA telnet://xaragmata.thebbs.org (3:800/432)

Hello Jeff,

As crazy or as unbelievable as the previous UK article may sound, there is o JS>disturbing element which seems to clearly define the religious nature of the JS>endtime One World Government of the Beast. The word "beast" is used in the JS>Bible to refer to a specific political leader, or the government of a specif JS>nation, or a world power. At any rate, that one disturbing element is the fa JS>that those who refuse to go along with the One World Government will be JS>beheaded. There is only ONE modern major religion where beheading by a sword JS>remains an acceptable form of capital punishment, and it certainly isn't JS>Christianity or Judaism or Buddhism or Hinduism.

The sword, axe, and guillotine were all widely used by Christians.
Even the Jews beheaded folks, usually with a sword, in times past.
In fact, crucifixion was also a Jewish custom, not used solely by the
Romans. However, crucifixion rarely resulted in the loss of one's head.
In any event, the death penalty today is in disfavor among all civilized nations, except the USA. It is only a matter of time before the USA
joins the fold, along with all other nations. Which, in my opinion,
would be a good thing.

--Lee


* SLMR 2.1a * Press any key to continue or any other key to quit

--- Maximus 3.01
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Hello Jeff,

Noah built a boat in the mountain? Interesting. Regards, Roger

To my knowledge, the Bible does not specifically say where Noah built the Ar JS>What we do know is that once the flood waters receded, the Ark rested upon t JS>"mountains of Ararat", which is a mountainous region of eastern Armenia, JS>between the river Araxes, and the lakes Van and Oroomiah. Some Bible scholar JS>and archeologists claim to have discovered the remains of the Ark, as well JS>anchor stones, an altar that Noah built afterwards, and even the remains of JS>the stone house that Noah built afterwards, as well as the vineyard that he JS>planted, and areas where animals were kept afterwards. Exactly how accurate JS>true any of this really is, I honestly do not know. Over the decades, there JS>have been several claims of having found the Ark in different areas of the JS>Arafat region.

The Bible and the Qur`an both agree on the "mountains of Arafat" as
being the resting place of Noah's Ark. Whether the ark still exists,
or remains where it originally came to rest, is an open question.
The best claim of Noah's Ark that I have come across seems to be
an area in Iran, where remnants of what could be the Ark have been
found. But, as you noted, there have been several claims over the
years, in various places.

--Lee


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--- Maximus 3.01
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On 04/06/09, Jeff Snyder quoted Steve Asher: Choudary calls for Sharia
"Law" in UK.

To my knowledge, I am not of Jewish descent, despite my last name - Scottish, and English, though there may be a link I am not aware of.

Interesting. I am English/Irish on my mother's side, although you would never know it going by my last name.

Jeff Snyder, SysOp - Armageddon BBS Visit us at endtimeprophecy.org port 23 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Your Download Center 4 Mac BBS Software & Christian Files. We Use Hermes II


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On 04/06/09, Jeff Snyder quoted Steve Asher: Choudary calls for Sharia
"Law" in UK.

I accept your distinction, but in return point out the "obligation" on Jews to seek observance of "Halacha" laws, and the obligation to impose Noahide Laws upon Gentiles. Israel is currently a secular state, unlike islamic "theocracies" such as Iran / Saudi Arabia.

The clear "halachic" requirement is that Israel change from a secular state to a theocracy, under the (currently nascent) Sanhedrin, and to rule the Gentile nations by imposing & enforcing Noahide Laws.

Interesting...although unless these particular Jews in some way take over the world in a religious sense, as they have already done in a financial sense,
and to some degree, even in a political sense, it will never be possible for them to enforce these laws upon the Gentile nations at any level. Of course,
if there were to be a One World Government, whose leader was of Jewish origin...

I couldn't help but notice the phrase "under the (currently nascent) Sanhedrin". This again seems to emphasize how serious this particular sect of Jews is to rebuilding the temple, and re-establishing their old form of religious worship...and sacrifiice?

I am not totally unfamiliar with these things, being as some of them are a central part of Christian eschatological beliefs, but I am curious as to how you personally became interested in them. You obviously have a deeper
knowledge of them than the average person, and probably even more than the average Christian. While you stated that you are not of Jewish descent, do you nevertheless observe some form of the Jewish religion? Again, just curious.

Jeff Snyder, SysOp - Armageddon BBS Visit us at endtimeprophecy.org port 23 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Your Download Center 4 Mac BBS Software & Christian Files. We Use Hermes II


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On 04/06/09, Jeff Snyder quoted Lee Lofaso: Re: Choudary calls for S.

The sword, axe, and guillotine were all widely used by Christians. Even the Jews beheaded folks, usually with a sword, in times past. In fact, crucifixion was also a Jewish custom, not used solely by the Romans. However, crucifixion rarely resulted in the loss of one's head. In any event, the death penalty today is in disfavor among all civilized nations, except the USA. It is only a matter of time before the USA joins the fold, along with all other nations. Which, in my opinion, would be a good thing.

Hello again Lee. Thanks for your comments. I imagine that you are already following the conversation between Steve Asher and myself. As I already mentioned to Steve, while I am aware of this form of capital punishment being used in the past, I was actually referring to nations today where beheading is still actively enforced, that of course being the Muslim nations. However, Steve is revealing some things of which I personally was not aware.

I have also been following the status of the death penalty, and am aware of
the fact that the USA is one of the few Western nations where it is still an acceptable form of punishment. Some time ago I wrote an article called "Bloody But Unbowed: Timothy McVeigh And The Death Penalty". If you'd care to read it, please go here:

www.endtimeprophecy.net/EPN-1/Articles/Articles-Cont/bloodyun.html

For the record, I likewise find the death penalty gross, and have often said, and written, that it is easy for people to accept it when they are not the one pulling the lever, or administering the drugs. Being the executioner gives one a whole new perspective.

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On 04/06/09, Jeff Snyder quoted Lee Lofaso: Re: Choudary calls for S.

The Bible and the Qur`an both agree on the "mountains of Arafat" as being the resting place of Noah's Ark. Whether the ark still exists, or remains where it originally came to rest, is an open question. The best claim of Noah's Ark that I have come across seems to be an area in Iran, where remnants of what could be the Ark have been found. But, as you noted, there have been several claims over the years, in various places.

Hi Lee. Thanks for responding. Given that extreme northwestern Iran is
bordered by Armenia where the mountainous region of Ararat is located, I suppose that the remains of the Ark could possibly be there as well. I do know that Anchor Stones International is capitalizing on one location, in conjunction with the Turkish government. Personally, I find it disgusting that they would do this. In case you were not aware of it, I am strongly opposed to the financial exploitation of the Christian faith. It goes against everything that the Bible teaches us regarding "filthy lucre".

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Lee Lofaso wrote in a message to Jeff Snyder:

In fact, crucifixion was also a Jewish custom, not used solely by
the Romans.

Lee, I definitely would like to see your citation on that one.


Regards,

Joe
--- timEd/386 1.10.y2k+
* Origin: -=[Fire on the Bayou]=- Nawlins (1:3828/12)

Jeff Snyder wrote in a message to Steve Asher:

On 04/06/09, Jeff Snyder quoted Steve Asher: Choudary calls for
Sharia "Law" in UK.

I accept your distinction, but in return point out the
"obligation" on Jews
to seek observance of "Halacha" laws, and the obligation to impose
Noahide
Laws upon Gentiles. Israel is currently a secular state, unlike islamic "theocracies" such as Iran / Saudi Arabia.

Jews have no such obligation. To say that means you know nothing about Judaism.

Interesting...although unless these particular Jews in some way
take over the world in a religious sense, as they have already done
in a financial sense, and to some degree, even in a political
sense, it will never be possible for them to enforce these laws
upon the Gentile nations at any level. Of course, if there were to
be a One World Government, whose leader was of Jewish origin...

What exactly are you implying here, Jeff? Are you saying the Jews have taken over the World, financially? Show us the facts on that. How many Jews are there
in the world, Jeff?


Regards,

Joe
--- timEd/386 1.10.y2k+
* Origin: -=[Fire on the Bayou]=- Nawlins (1:3828/12)

Noah built a boat in the mountain? Interesting.

To my knowledge, the Bible does not specifically say where Noah built the Ark.

The best guess anyone has is that Noah lived on the plains between the Tigris and Euphrates rivers. That the ark ended up on the mountain is in the Bible, but Genesis doesn't state exactly where Noah lived. I'm inclined to believe
it is according to the best guess stated above.

true any of this really is, I honestly do not know. Over the decades,
there have been several claims of having found the Ark in different
areas of the Arafat region.

Where would that be?

Roger

... Mere life is not victory, mere death is not defeat.
--- D'Bridge 3.24
* Origin: NCS BBS (1:3828/7)

Mulling over Joe Bruchis to Jeff Snyder 05 Apr 2009

On 04/06/09, Jeff Snyder quoted Steve Asher: Choudary calls for
Sharia "Law" in UK.

I accept your distinction, but in return point out the "obligation"
on Jews to seek observance of "Halacha" laws, and the obligation to
impose Noahide Laws upon Gentiles. Israel is currently a secular
state, unlike islamic "theocracies" such as Iran / Saudi Arabia.

Jews have no such obligation. To say that means you know nothing
about Judaism.

If you have any evidence in support of your assertion, feel free to
provide it. My knowledge of Judaism is limited to what information
Jews themselves provide, the ease which I can find the information,
my ability to read and understand the information, and the fact
that there are other views that may oppose or modify the information
that I post. My Fidonet messages are not meant to cover every shade
of belief or opinion on any subject, and are always open to challenge, expansion, or discussion. Some Jewish sources that can be readily
found say that Jews have such obligation - you say they do not.

Since I reject the "noahide laws" as a rejection of God's plan of
salvation and eternal life through Jesus Christ, I am not overly
concerned by arguments about obligations or otherwise on Jews
to enforce these "laws".

(extracts)
http://www.ahavat-israel.com/am/goyim.php

Noachide Laws

"Ultimately, all is understood: fear G-d and observe His commandments,
for this is the completion of man."

[... ...]

The Jew's Role
The Jew has a crucial role to play in this. He cannot be a bystander,
remaining aloof from the world's conduct. Every Jew has the obligation
to ensure that all the people of the world observe the Seven Noachide Laws.

It is through the observance of the Seven Noachide Laws that the entire
world becomes a decent, productive place, a fitting receptacle for the Divine.

The Rambam explicitly rules (Code, Kings 8:10):
"Moshe Rabbeinu commanded from the mouth of G-d to convince all the
inhabitants of the world to observe the commandments given to the
Children of Noach."

It is the Jew's duty to see to it that all peoples lead the righteous
and decent life which comes from compliance with the Seven Noachide Laws.
Not only is it a Jew's duty because he has been so commanded by G-d, but
it is also to his own benefit.

---
* Origin: Xaragmata / Adelaide SA telnet://xaragmata.thebbs.org (3:800/432)

The clear "halachic" requirement is that Israel change from a
secular state to a theocracy, under the (currently nascent)
Sanhedrin, and to rule the Gentile nations by imposing & enforcing
Noahide Laws.

Interesting...although unless these particular Jews in some way
take over the world in a religious sense, as they have already done
in a financial sense, and to some degree, even in a political
sense, it will never be possible for them to enforce these laws
upon the Gentile nations at any level. Of course, if there were to
be a One World Government, whose leader was of Jewish origin...

... or who was regarded by Jews as being "Moshiach", regardless
of his origin, but most likely or almost certainly Jewish (IMO).

I couldn't help but notice the phrase "under the (currently
nascent) Sanhedrin". This again seems to emphasize how serious this particular sect of Jews is to rebuilding the temple, and
re-establishing their old form of religious worship...and
sacrifiice?

They are quite serious - there is some discussion about who will build
the Temple (Moshiach?), or whether it is already built, in Heaven, and
ready to descend at the time of "G-d's" choosing. Since the previous
temples were built by man, it is reasonable to expect that the next
one will be built by men, and prophetically to be occupied by the
Antichrist (false Messiah).

I am not totally unfamiliar with these things, being as some of
them are a central part of Christian eschatological beliefs, but I
am curious as to how you personally became interested in them. You obviously have a deeper knowledge of them than the average person,
and probably even more than the average Christian. While you stated
that you are not of Jewish descent, do you nevertheless observe
some form of the Jewish religion? Again, just curious.

My interest goes back about 30 years, when as a non-Christian, I became interested in the identity of Antichrist, and who he might be. The most
likely candidate is the one the Jews are expecting as "Moshiach", since
they (generally) rejected the true Messiah, Jesus Christ, who came in
his father's name, and still await a future "messiah", who may appear
at any time.

I don't observe some form of the Jewish religion, but I do accept Judaism
as the Old Testament basis of Christianity.

Cheers, Steve..

---
* Origin: Xaragmata / Adelaide SA telnet://xaragmata.thebbs.org (3:800/432)

Steve Asher -> Joe Bruchis wrote:

Mulling over Joe Bruchis to Jeff Snyder 05 Apr 2009

On 04/06/09, Jeff Snyder quoted Steve Asher: Choudary calls for
Sharia "Law" in UK.

I accept your distinction, but in return point out the "obligation"
on Jews to seek observance of "Halacha" laws, and the obligation to
impose Noahide Laws upon Gentiles. Israel is currently a secular
state, unlike islamic "theocracies" such as Iran / Saudi Arabia.

Jews have no such obligation. To say that means you know nothing
about Judaism.

If you have any evidence in support of your assertion, feel free to provide it. My knowledge of Judaism is limited to what information
Jews themselves provide, the ease which I can find the information,
my ability to read and understand the information, and the fact
that there are other views that may oppose or modify the information
that I post. My Fidonet messages are not meant to cover every shade
of belief or opinion on any subject, and are always open to challenge, expansion, or discussion. Some Jewish sources that can be readily
found say that Jews have such obligation - you say they do not.

What I replied to was actually not written by you. However, you are discussing philosophies of Rabbis of which there have been millions upon millions and philosophies of Philosophers and Theologians of which there have been many millions more.

The only thing that makes a Jew a Jew is that one is born of a Jewish Mother. That's it in totality. Everything else is philosophy, and is also geographical and/or secular in nature.

It does no good to try to nail it down, because it can't be nailed-down.

There is no one description of Judaism or Jewishness other than the one I stated.

The Rambam explicitly rules (Code, Kings 8:10):
"Moshe Rabbeinu commanded from the mouth of G-d to convince all the inhabitants of the world to observe the commandments given to the
Children of Noach."

Moses Maimonides, also known as Rabbi Moses ben Maimon or Rambam, was just another Rabbi. He was a great philosopher and theologian, but he was not G-d, as it seems he is being made out to be.

It is the Jew's duty to see to it that all peoples lead the righteous
and decent life which comes from compliance with the Seven Noachide Laws. Not only is it a Jew's duty because he has been so commanded by G-d, but it is also to his own benefit.

Not a bad teaching, I must say. But only a teaching, nonetheless.

Regards,

Joe

--- Thunderbird 2.0.0.21 (Macintosh/20090302)
* Origin: Fidonet Via Newsreader - http://www.easternstar.info (1:123/789.0)

Hello Joe,

In fact, crucifixion was also a Jewish custom, not used solely by
the Romans.

Lee, I definitely would like to see your citation on that one.

Why certainly, Joe -

http://joezias.com/CrucifixionAntiquity.html

"In Ancient Israel crucifixion amongst the Jews was rare and except for
a few instances, as when treason was involved, the subject was stoned to
death first and then hung on a tree in accordance with the Biblical
passage in Deuteronomy 21:22-23."

Dt 21:22-23 - "When someone is convicted of a crime punishable by death
and executed, and you hang him on a tree, his corpse must not remain all
night upon the tree; you shall bury him that same day, for anyone hung
on a tree is under God's curse."

Of course, that does not tell the whole story.

"There was one exception to this passage in which the Jewish victims
were killed first via crucifi ion rather than being hung on a tree after
death as was the case with the high priest, Alexander Janneus in which
800 Jews were crucified in Jerusalem in 87 BCE before their wives and
children. While on the cross, according to Josephus (Ant. 12:256) the
women and children were then slaughtered before their eyes."

Jews did not crucify only men, or in the same way -

"Perhaps one of the unique aspects of Jewish crucifixion was that when
employed on women, according to Mishna, they faced the cross whereas men
were crucified with their back to the cross. (M. Sanh. 6.4)"

--Lee


* SLMR 2.1a * "Give yourself over to absolute pleasure."-Frank'N'Furter

--- Maximus 3.01
* Origin: Xaragmata / Adelaide SA telnet://xaragmata.thebbs.org (3:800/432)

Hello Joe,

The only thing that makes a Jew a Jew is that one is born
of a Jewish Mother. That's it in totality. Everything else
is philosophy, and is also geographical and/or secular in
nature.

"What is a Jew?" - Sigmund Freud

To the best of my knowledge, that question has never been sufficiently
answered by anybody. One man's definition of a Jew might be totally
different than another man's definition. As such, how can anyone define
what cannot be defined?

It does no good to try to nail it down, because it can't be nailed-down.

Kind of like trying to nail jello to a wall.

There is no one description of Judaism or Jewishness other
than the one I stated.

Even your description is open to question.

The Rambam explicitly rules (Code, Kings 8:10):
"Moshe Rabbeinu commanded from the mouth of G-d to convince all the >SA>inhabitants of the world to observe the commandments given to the >SA>Children of Noach."

Moses Maimonides, also known as Rabbi Moses ben Maimon or
Rambam, was just another Rabbi. He was a great philosopher
and theologian, but he was not G-d, as it seems he is being
made out to be.

Philosophy is an intellectual discipline.
Theology is also an intellectual discipline.
Both philosophy and theology serve to answer
certain questions. But no philosopher or
theologian is God.

Was Jesus "just another Rabbi", as some have claimed? During his public ministry, He was asked, many times, what His source was for what He
stated. Who, or what, was His authority? A rabbi is expected to have
learned from another rabbi. Original thought being unthinkable. What
rabbi, or school of religious study, did Jesus cite? Or is it true that
Jesus claim was that He truly was the Son of God?

It is the Jew's duty to see to it that all peoples lead the righteous >SA>and decent life which comes from compliance with the Seven Noachide Law >SA>Not only is it a Jew's duty because he has been so commanded by G-d, bu >SA>it is also to his own benefit.

Not a bad teaching, I must say. But only a teaching, nonetheless.

Was Jesus just a teacher (rabbi), as some have claimed?
Was Jesus just a philosopher, as George W. Bush claimed?

"What is a Jew?" could be restated "Who is that Jew?"
Certainly Jesus was no mere teacher (rabbi) or philosopher.

--Lee


* SLMR 2.1a * Allons Bingo.

--- Maximus 3.01
* Origin: Xaragmata / Adelaide SA telnet://xaragmata.thebbs.org (3:800/432)

Lee Lofaso -> Joe Bruchis wrote:

Hello Joe,

The only thing that makes a Jew a Jew is that one is born
of a Jewish Mother. That's it in totality. Everything else
is philosophy, and is also geographical and/or secular in
nature.

"What is a Jew?" - Sigmund Freud

To the best of my knowledge, that question has never been sufficiently answered by anybody. One man's definition of a Jew might be totally different than another man's definition. As such, how can anyone define what cannot be defined?

A Freudian slip, I guess:

Who is a Jew?

A Jew is any person whose mother was a Jew or any person who has gone through the formal process of conversion to Judaism.

It is important to note that being a Jew has nothing to do with what you believe or what you do. A person born to non-Jewish parents who has not undergone the formal process of conversion but who believes everything that Orthodox Jews believe and observes every law and custom of Judaism is still a non-Jew, even in the eyes of the most liberal movements of Judaism, and a person born to a Jewish mother who is an atheist and never practices the Jewish
religion is still a Jew, even in the eyes of the ultra-Orthodox.

http://www.jewfaq.org/whoisjew.htm

It does no good to try to nail it down, because it can't be nailed-down.

Kind of like trying to nail jello to a wall.

Yeah.

There is no one description of Judaism or Jewishness other
than the one I stated.

Even your description is open to question.

No, it's not.

Philosophy is an intellectual discipline.
Theology is also an intellectual discipline.
Both philosophy and theology serve to answer
certain questions. But no philosopher or
theologian is God.

Why did you feel you needed to tell me that?

Was Jesus "just another Rabbi", as some have claimed? During his public ministry, He was asked, many times, what His source was for what He stated. Who, or what, was His authority? A rabbi is expected to have learned from another rabbi. Original thought being unthinkable. What rabbi, or school of religious study, did Jesus cite? Or is it true that Jesus claim was that He truly was the Son of God?

How would I know the answer to that?

Was Jesus just a teacher (rabbi), as some have claimed?
Was Jesus just a philosopher, as George W. Bush claimed?

He was both.

"What is a Jew?" could be restated "Who is that Jew?"
Certainly Jesus was no mere teacher (rabbi) or philosopher.

Certainly? Other than the "Bible" there are large gaps in documentation regarding his life. I guess you'll never really know, and certainly, you will never be certain.


Regards,

Joe

--- Thunderbird 2.0.0.21 (Macintosh/20090302)
* Origin: Fidonet Via Newsreader - http://www.easternstar.info (1:123/789.0)

On 04/08/09, Jeff Snyder quoted Lee Lofaso: Re: Choudary calls for S.

The sword, axe, and guillotine were all widely used by Christians. Even the Jews beheaded folks, usually with a sword, in times past. In fact, crucifixion was also a Jewish custom, not used solely by the Romans.

Hello again Lee. I'd really appreciate some clarification on that last
comment. In all the years that I have been studying the Bible -- four decades -- I have never heard or read of Jews crucifying other Jews. Stoning to death, yes, but never crucifixion.

In fact, in the Bible, when Pilate asked the Jewish leaders why they couldn't just put Jesus to death themselves, guess how they responded? Check this out:

"Then said Pilate unto them, Take ye him, and judge him according to your law. The Jews therefore said unto him, It is not lawful for us to put any man to death:" (John 18:31, KJV)

It was, of course, a rather hypocritcal response, being as they apparently had no qualms with stoning prostitutes, etc. I think the real issue here is that they wanted Pilate to do their dirty work for them.

Anyway, my point stands. I've never heard or read of Jews using crucifixion.

Jeff Snyder, SysOp - Armageddon BBS Visit us at endtimeprophecy.org port 23 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Your Download Center 4 Mac BBS Software & Christian Files. We Use Hermes II


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On 04/08/09, Jeff Snyder quoted Roger Nelson: Re: Choudary calls for
Sharia "Law" in UK.

true any of this really is, I honestly do not know. Over the decades,
there have been several claims of having found the Ark in different
areas of the Arafat region.

Where would that be? Roger

Hello Roger, Lee and anyone else who is interested in this topic of Noah's Ark.

I apologize for my absence here the last two days, but it was for a good reason. As a result of our discussion here, I spent the last two days updating an article I first wrote in April of 1997 concerning Noah's Ark and the
Genesis Flood.

In fact, for those of you who may be interested, I have put together a small zipped archive of 1.1 MB which contains both the updated two-part series, as well as all of the other material I possess regarding the Ark. It has been sitting on my hard drive for years, and includes old NATO photos, as well as photos from the Associated Press and Life Magazine, and more recent photos of the Durupinaral dig site. After reading and looking at it all, you can each form your own opinions.

If any of you want a copy of the zipped archive, please netmail me an email address where I can send it to:

Jeff Snyder, 1:345/3777.0

You can also read my two-part series online here:

www.endtimeprophecy.net/EPN-1/Articles/Articles-Scie/noahark1.html

Jeff Snyder, SysOp - Armageddon BBS Visit us at endtimeprophecy.org port 23 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Your Download Center 4 Mac BBS Software & Christian Files. We Use Hermes II


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On 04/08/09, Jeff Snyder quoted Steve Asher: Choudary calls for Sharia
"Law" in UK.

Since I reject the "noahide laws" as a rejection of God's plan of salvation and eternal life through Jesus Christ, I am not overly concerned by arguments about obligations or otherwise on Jews to enforce these "laws".

We appear to be on the same team...I think. :)

Jeff Snyder, SysOp - Armageddon BBS Visit us at endtimeprophecy.org port 23 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Your Download Center 4 Mac BBS Software & Christian Files. We Use Hermes II


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On 04/08/09, Jeff Snyder quoted Steve Asher: Choudary calls for Sharia
"Law" in UK.

... or who was regarded by Jews as being "Moshiach", regardless of his origin, but most likely or almost certainly Jewish (IMO).

I don't know how much of my work you have read, but I tend to agree with you there. I too am more than aware of the Orthodox Jewish expectation of Moshiach ben David, and I also agree that, in my understanding, only one who is of the line of David will be crowned Moshiach, and will be able to sit in the Third Temple. Of course, you and I both know where it goes from there. :)

They are quite serious - there is some discussion about who will build the Temple (Moshiach?), or whether it is already built, in Heaven, and ready to descend at the time of "G-d's" choosing. Since the previous temples were built by man, it is reasonable to expect that the next one will be built by men, and prophetically to be occupied by the Antichrist (false Messiah).

Yes, I am aware of this debate as well. I again agree with your reasoning, and do not believe that the Third Temple should be interpreted in a purely spiritual context. I am quite convinced that the next one, if there will be
a next one -- the treaty will make that possible, I believe -- it will
likewise be physical in nature, just as the man who will sit in it will also
be very much physical.

My interest goes back about 30 years, when as a non-Christian, I became interested in the identity of Antichrist, and who he might be. The most likely candidate is the one the Jews are expecting as "Moshiach", since they (generally) rejected the true Messiah, Jesus Christ, who came in his father's name, and still await a future "messiah", who may appear at any

It seems as if we have been on the same track in some regards. My interest in eschatological events began in the late sixties, and I have been interested in such things ever since.

I do have more things to say to you, but I am wondering if perhaps we should switch this conversation to the EDGE_ONLINE echo, being as that is what I originally designed it for, and these topics fit right in. I simply feel somewhat limited regarding what I can say and do in this echo, being as it is not really specifically designed for overtly religious discussions. I'd like
to respect the sensitivities of others who may visit this echo, and not intentionally push their buttons, or step on their toes.

We have so much more to discuss, it seems, so let me know if you care to hop
on over there.

Thanks!

Jeff Snyder, SysOp - Armageddon BBS Visit us at endtimeprophecy.org port 23 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Your Download Center 4 Mac BBS Software & Christian Files. We Use Hermes II


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Replying to a message of Roger Nelson to Jeff Snyder:

Noah built a boat in the mountain? Interesting.

To my knowledge, the Bible does not specifically say where Noah built
the Ark.

The best guess anyone has is that Noah lived on the plains between the Tigris and Euphrates rivers. That the ark ended up on the mountain
is in the Bible, but Genesis doesn't state exactly where Noah lived.
I'm inclined to believe it is according to the best guess stated
above.

Archaeologists have found evidence of a massive flood in that area. Dunno if they've pinpointed the time frame, though.

--- FleetStreet 1.19+
* Origin: Bob's Boneyard, Emerson, Iowa (1:300/3)

Word weaver -> Steve Asher wrote:

On 04/08/09, Jeff Snyder quoted Steve Asher: Choudary calls for Sharia

I do have more things to say to you, but I am wondering if perhaps we should
switch this conversation to the EDGE_ONLINE echo, being as that is what I originally designed it for, and these topics fit right in. I simply feel somewhat limited regarding what I can say and do in this echo, being as
it is
not really specifically designed for overtly religious discussions. I'd like
to respect the sensitivities of others who may visit this echo, and not intentionally push their buttons, or step on their toes.

I will be very disappointed if Steve Asher continues discussing your warped understanding of the Jewish religion with you. He has stated to me he does not
go along with your Elders of Zion Protocols developed by Nazis. I assume, similarly he does not believe Jews refer to Christians as Cattle, and that the less than 18 million Jews in the entire world could not possibly be in control of the financial wealth of the world. That is simply ignorant.

If you think running to another echo will allow you to continue blabbering your
warped concepts of Judaism and your racist rants, you are wrong. I'll find you wherever you wander. I will counter and set straight all of your lies.

We have so much more to discuss, it seems, so let me know if you care to hop
on over there.

I'll see you there.

Joe

--- Thunderbird 2.0.0.21 (Macintosh/20090302)
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Wordweaver -> Steve Asher wrote:

On 04/08/09, Jeff Snyder quoted Steve Asher: Choudary calls for Sharia "Law" in UK.

Since I reject the "noahide laws" as a rejection of God's plan of

salvation

and eternal life through Jesus Christ, I am not overly concerned by
arguments about obligations or otherwise on Jews to enforce these

"laws".

We appear to be on the same team...I think. :)

So you are recruiting team members?

--- Thunderbird 2.0.0.21 (Macintosh/20090302)
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Replying to a message of Joe Bruchis to Wordweaver:

I will be very disappointed if Steve Asher continues discussing your warped understanding of the Jewish religion with you. He has stated
to me he does not go along with your Elders of Zion Protocols
developed by Nazis.

That document ("The Protocols of the Elders of Zion") was written by the Russian Czar's secret police sometime right around 1900. While the Nazis *used* that document they did not *write* it.

--- FleetStreet 1.19+
* Origin: Bob's Boneyard, Emerson, Iowa (1:300/3)

Hello Bob,

I will be very disappointed if Steve Asher continues discussing your >JB>warped understanding of the Jewish religion with you. He has stated
to me he does not go along with your Elders of Zion Protocols
developed by Nazis.

That document ("The Protocols of the Elders of Zion") was written by the BA>Russian Czar's secret police sometime right around 1900. While the Nazis BA>*used* that document they did not *write* it.

Russians were always better writers, poets, composers, and artists
than Germans. Tolstoy, Pushkin, Dostoevsky, Tsvetayeva, Tchaikovski,
Repin, Vysotsky, etc., along with Nobel Prize Laureates (in literature) Pasternak, Bunin, Solzhenitsn, Brodskiy, and Sholohov. All the Germans
seem to have is Wagner (extremely loud music) and Hitler (Mein Kampf).

--Lee


* SLMR 2.1a * Je t'aime.

--- Maximus 3.01
* Origin: Xaragmata / Adelaide SA telnet://xaragmata.thebbs.org (3:800/432)

On 04/12/09, Jeff Snyder quoted Lee Lofaso: Choudary calls for Shari.

Russians were always better writers, poets, composers, and artists than Germans. Tolstoy, Pushkin, Dostoevsky, Tsvetayeva, Tchaikovski, Repin, Vysotsky, etc., along with Nobel Prize Laureates (in literature) Pasternak, Bunin, Solzhenitsn, Brodskiy, and Sholohov. All the Germans seem to have is Wagner (extremely loud music) and Hitler (Mein Kampf).

What about German dark beer? No, I don't drink alcoholic beverages, but I just had to throw that out there. :)

Jeff Snyder, SysOp - Armageddon BBS Visit us at endtimeprophecy.org port 23 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Your Download Center 4 Mac BBS Software & Christian Files. We Use Hermes II


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Bob Buckley -> Joe Bruchis wrote:

Replying to a message of Joe Bruchis to Wordweaver:

I will be very disappointed if Steve Asher continues discussing your
warped understanding of the Jewish religion with you. He has stated
to me he does not go along with your Elders of Zion Protocols
developed by Nazis.

That document ("The Protocols of the Elders of Zion") was written by the Russian Czar's secret police sometime right around 1900. While the Nazis *used* that document they did not *write* it.

I don't understand why such a benign distinction is being made. *Using* it, meaning they adopted it, is no different than if they wrote the document. In any event, it should not be attributed to the "Jews".

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